Bonjour
Pour être bien objectif et aider à la compréhension, je vous transmets l'information qui suit. Ainsi nous seront à la même place.
C'est long mais je pense qu'il est important de regarder en arrière pour essayer de mieux voir en avant.
Ces textes sont anglais, mais si un membre ne comprend pas, qu'il soit très à l'aise de demander l'explication française sans gêne. Il s'agit juste de faire un c/c du texte en question et de le mettre dans votre message. Je vais le mettre en français.
Il y a une étude de "Zonad" membre du site, et du livre de "Terry A. Campbell" soit "Canadian Error Coins".
Pour l'étude de Zonad ce qui accroche est souligné en rouge. Il a tout le mérite de nous aider à faire un bout.
Pour ceux qui ont du temps et la volonté d'approfondir, il y a des photos avec ces messages (Zonad) qui aident aussi.
Pour les commentaires de Terry A. Campbell, l'équipe qui a fait les descriptions et explications de la liste n'étaient pas d'accord avec ses commentaires
Pour ceux qui ont mit leurs commentaires, je vais y revenir car ils sont important pour la suite.
S'il y en a qui ont d'autres informations soit livres, liens web, etc…S.V.P. les mètrent ici, merci.
Ce qui suit provient de Zonad dans deux discussions sur le C.C.R.S.
1° DiscussionThe 1962 Harp & Guitar (Zonad, 4/8/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (Zonad, 4/8/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (Zonad, 4/8/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (fenix, 4/8/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (carpman, 4/9/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (JFK, 4/9/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (Zonad, 4/9/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (fenix, 4/9/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (Zonad, 4/10/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (JFK, 4/10/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (Fiston2005, 4/10/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar (fenix, 4/10/2008)
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
Five strikes with no coin present and the dies rotate about one degree between each strike. I only layered two obverses on one reverse to show the possibility.
Zonad, 4/8/2008
![Image](http://www.numicanada.com/forum/class/test/ZONAD_5_1.jpeg)
Interesting theory Randy - though I think harp & guitar lines look more like tool marks than clash marks. When magnified, tool marks usually look like little mountain ranges whereas clash marks are like plateaus with cliffs.
JFK, 4/9/2008
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
Joe, you must think the harp and guitar are the same die if you think they are tool marks?
Zonad, 4/9/2008
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
Randy, I think in both cases we are talking about only one die... are we not? Or do you believe your quint-a-clash from a loose die would have occurred in the same spot with the same spacing on more than one instance?
I am curious, did you try aligning the proposed clash marks (from the forehead I am assuming) with the positioning of the marks from the K86b/c varieties? It appears to me that the clash marks would be at the wrong angle / position to the leaf; if the dies are aligned and only allowed to rotate?fenix, 4/9/2008
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
Henry, I don't have a good photo from directly over a harp or guitar coin. If someone could supply one I will do overlays. I agree the angle may be off, but there are a couple other spots on the bust which could cause the lines. As for Joe's comments, I think his explanation is the most reasonable for a single die but is not plausible for two dies.
Zonad, 4/10/2008
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
> ...not plausible for two dies... >
Oh I dunno, the newby who scratched up one die could have made the same mistake twice
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
JFK, 4/10/2008
Hello fenix! I believe that you are right! I have to look at both and I found characteristic which would prove that it is same die (reverse). It is true that both have the damage of tools at the same place. Moreover, I found 5 dots with the same site on both. Look at the picture!
Fiston2005, 4/10/2008
Re: The 1962 Harp & Guitar
Hi Fiston2005, those are excellent images! do you mind telling us what you use to talk the pictures?
Once again that is very good sleuthing... those small plating pits look very interesting. I wonder when they were introduced? If these were bubbles in the original plating they might even identify the die before it was mistreated in maintenance. By looking at your excellent image of the early state ('guitar') variety you can see the 'micro' resurfacing striations from the polishing. This technician certainly was putting a lot of effort into his job.
Based on the number of dies used it seems that each die struck on average 432,000 1-cent pieces. I wonder how many were struck after the tool marks were put in?
Once again, great work!
fenix, 4/10/2008
2° Discussion1962 harp and guitar (Zonad, 10/7/2008)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar (2centsworth, 10/7/2008)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar (Zonad, 10/8/2008)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar (JFK, 10/8/2008)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar (rjms768, 10/9/2008)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar (Zonad, 10/10/2008)
1962 harp and guitar
A while back I came up with a theory of a die clash with a progressively rotating die as being the possible cause.
http://canadiancoin.com/cgi-bin/canadia ... 3545&_st=0 Here's a photo of a coin with multiple die clashes with loose dies. Perhaps the roughness of the harp and guitar is because that edge of the obverse die was damaged by the die clash. (JFK said die clash unlikely because of the roughness of the marks.)
Zonad, 10/7/2008
Re: 1962 harp and guitar
Your theory (multiple rotated die clash rather than tool marks)seems quite plausible to me. Here's another example.
2centsworth, 10/7/2008
CCRS member since: 10/20/2005
Posts: 984
view attached image (105 KB)
Re: 1962 harp and guitar
Thanks, i know it's easier to disprove a theory about coin than to prove one.
Zonad, 10/8/2008
Re: 1962 harp and guitar
Randy - that's a very pretty clash coin!
Maybe try running your idea past some error experts, such as Mike Diamond & Ken Potter.
JFK, 10/8/2008
Re: 1962 harp and guitar
Speaking of which, anyone know why the 1962 harp variety isn't mentioned in the Carleton catalog? Is this variety just not well recognized?
rjms768, 10/9/2008
Exactly, not recognized by some.
Zonad, 10/10/2008
Commentaires de Terry A. Campbell![Image](http://www.numicanada.com/forum/class/test/Harpe_4_1.jpeg)